Thanks for the update Hawk. I just returned from the Arctic and will call Vickie tonight. This case can be won, but it is essential that Mr. Mark present a clear, concise, well-researched closing argument on the law of fiduciaries and the standard of care. I hope he can pull it off.
Commie Chris
JoinedPosts by Commie Chris
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NEWS - VICKI BOER CASE - Canadian Press - Sep 22
by hawkaw inthis was article is also found in the toronto star internet site.
i am unclear if or when it will be in the toronto star paper.
you should find this article in numerous papers canada wide today.
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Watchtower illegal witness tampering?
by Quotes inin another thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36530&page=1&site=3#493189), i mentioned a heated incident which happened on thursday at the boer vx.
cairns et al trial in toronto.
to refresh the memory: .
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Commie Chris
Vickie told me about the alleged offer to Frank Mottrill a few weeks ago. If it is true, it would almost certainly constitute obstruction of justice - if it can be proven. Further, IF true, it shows an almost unbelievable lack of basic ethics on the part of those who made the offer. If such an offer was made, I strongly doubt that there is any paper trail to prove it. The WT legal team may be many things, but they are not stupid.
It does appear that the Judge mis-understood Frank's statement and thought that he was referring to a pre-trial settlement offer, rather than an alleged bribe offer, and therefore instructed counsel and the witness to say no more about this issue. It is a definite no-no to bring up such pre-trial offers or negotiations during the trial. Pre-trial settlement negotiations are always "without prejudice".
As I said in a post in another thread on this case, I am not Vickie's lawyer, and I was not in court when this exchange took place, so I have very limited information on which to base an opinion. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who was in court on Thursday as to how Vickie's lawyer addressed this issue. Hopefully he asked Frank M. to explain his comments during re-direct examination (in re-direct counsel for the plaintiff can question the witness on any matter which arose for the first time during cross-examination by the opposing counsel).
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UPDATE ON VICKI BOER CHILD ABUSE TRIAL /SEPT 13
by hawkaw ini am saddened to report barb anderson and dr. james penton will not testify at the trial.. however, even better.
penton wrote a lengthy letter and barb did a 30 page document as well.. both documents have been accepted into evidence by the judge and will be reviewed by the judge as part of her written decision.
this means the documents will not undergo cross-examination which is a good thing.. so if you ask me - a partial victory.. there is more happening that i cannot discuss that is going vicki's way - stunning stuff actually.
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Commie Chris
I have had very little to do with this case. I was contacted by Bill Bowen and Vickie about a month ago and I agreed to help in any way I can, but Vickie's lawyer has decided to handle the case alone. I have given Vickie advice when asked, but, as I am not her lawyer, there is not a lot I can do.
I know that Hawkaw has done a great deal to help Vickie and I understand that Bill Bowen, Alan F. and others have also been very involved and have been very helpful.
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UPDATE ON VICKI BOER CHILD ABUSE TRIAL /SEPT 13
by hawkaw ini am saddened to report barb anderson and dr. james penton will not testify at the trial.. however, even better.
penton wrote a lengthy letter and barb did a 30 page document as well.. both documents have been accepted into evidence by the judge and will be reviewed by the judge as part of her written decision.
this means the documents will not undergo cross-examination which is a good thing.. so if you ask me - a partial victory.. there is more happening that i cannot discuss that is going vicki's way - stunning stuff actually.
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Commie Chris
I have had very little to do with this case. I was contacted by Bill Bowen and Vickie about a month ago and I agreed to help in any way I can, but Vickie's lawyer has decided to handle the case alone. I have given Vickie advice when asked, but, as I am not her lawyer, there is not a lot I can do.
I know that Hawkaw has done a great deal to help Vickie and I understand that Bill Bowen, Alan F. and others have also been very involved and have been very helpful.
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UPDATE ON VICKI BOER CHILD ABUSE TRIAL /SEPT 13
by hawkaw ini am saddened to report barb anderson and dr. james penton will not testify at the trial.. however, even better.
penton wrote a lengthy letter and barb did a 30 page document as well.. both documents have been accepted into evidence by the judge and will be reviewed by the judge as part of her written decision.
this means the documents will not undergo cross-examination which is a good thing.. so if you ask me - a partial victory.. there is more happening that i cannot discuss that is going vicki's way - stunning stuff actually.
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Commie Chris
Alan F. is right. Vickie's character is irrelevant. In cases like this there is only one way for the courts to hold a religious organization responsible for its' conduct: awarding damages in the form of money. Invariably the churches will claim in cases like this that the plaintiff is only motivated by money (and in some cases that may be true) but the fact remains that our legal system is based upon the award of money damages to compensate victims and punish wrongdoers. Vickie is not responsible for this, and she is not responsible for the WT's obscene policy of covering up abuse to protect its' "clean image". Even if everything Honestly says is true, this does not change the fact that Vickie suffered as a result of this disgusting policy and she deserves to be compensated.
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UPDATE ON VICKI BOER CHILD ABUSE TRIAL /SEPT 13
by hawkaw ini am saddened to report barb anderson and dr. james penton will not testify at the trial.. however, even better.
penton wrote a lengthy letter and barb did a 30 page document as well.. both documents have been accepted into evidence by the judge and will be reviewed by the judge as part of her written decision.
this means the documents will not undergo cross-examination which is a good thing.. so if you ask me - a partial victory.. there is more happening that i cannot discuss that is going vicki's way - stunning stuff actually.
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Commie Chris
Expat: it was really good to see you again too.
I'm not sure that I could be much very much assistance in this case - this is an area of law that I do not normally practise - but I will do what I can if I am asked.
Unfortunately, I was not in court when the issue of Penton and Anderson's potential vidence was argued and decided, so I can't say much more than I have already said. I am hopeful that the decision to admit written statements rather than oral evidence resulted from the defendants' counsel agreeing to a deal to resolve the issue of admitting any evidence from Penton and Anderson - but I am just speculating at this point. If such a deal was struck, they will not have grounds for appeal. But if the defense argued against any evidence from Penton and Anderson being admitted, and no deal was made, and the Judge decided to resolve the issue by admitting written testimony against the objections of defense counsel, then I am a little worried that grounds for appeal may exist.
You should know, however, that even if the worst case scenario actually occurrred, and the defendants have grounds for appeal, this does not necessarily mean that a victory by Vickie would be overturned on appeal. The defendants would have to establish on appeal that if not for the Judge's error the result might have been different. If the appeal court finds that the other (properly admitted) evidence strongly supports the result, it will not be overturned. Grounds for appeal does not necessarily = successul appeal.
Finally, please remember everyone, this case is far from over - Vickie Boers seems to be a good, strong, intelligent woman, and she has a good case, and certainly deserves to win - but the defendants have not yet presented any of their evidence. I sincerely hope Vickie wins this case - it is important - but there is still a long way to go.
Edited by - commie chris on 13 September 2002 23:41:51
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UPDATE ON VICKI BOER CHILD ABUSE TRIAL /SEPT 13
by hawkaw ini am saddened to report barb anderson and dr. james penton will not testify at the trial.. however, even better.
penton wrote a lengthy letter and barb did a 30 page document as well.. both documents have been accepted into evidence by the judge and will be reviewed by the judge as part of her written decision.
this means the documents will not undergo cross-examination which is a good thing.. so if you ask me - a partial victory.. there is more happening that i cannot discuss that is going vicki's way - stunning stuff actually.
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Commie Chris
duplicate
Edited by - commie chris on 13 September 2002 23:45:35
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What is you occupation
by Beans inim a liceinced electrician now working in wireless communication installations.i love the electrical industry,there is so much to learn and so many different things do work with and technology is always changing.never a boaring day especially when we are working in the office buildings downtown,chicks everywhere!.
beans.
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Commie Chris
I'm a lawyer for First Nations (native communities).
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Would This Be Assault?
by expatbrit inok, let's construct a hypothetical situation.. this year i will not be attending the memorial.
up till now, the elders have left me alone, but not attending the memorial may well trigger a reaction.
one saturday afternoon the door bell goes.
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Commie Chris
If you have told him to leave and he refuses, he is trespassing. The law allows you to use "reasonable force" to evict a trespasser. You can't beat the crap out of him, but you can take him firmly by the lapel and escort him to the door. As long as you use no more force than is reasonable in the circumstances, after he has refused to leave, you will be OK.
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Weed
by rollercoaster ini have been out of the org., for over a year now.
i raised my child in the org., and she is now 14. i started smoking pot a month ago, and my daughter found out.
of course she was taught that this is sooo bad.
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Commie Chris
I have always had trouble sleeping. There is a safe, natural supplement that works for many people - it's called "melatonin". Melatonin is a natural hormone produced by a small gland at the base of your brain. The gland secretes it each night to tell your body it's time to sleep. Trouble is, some people don't produce enough, especially as they age. Take 1 tablet of melatonin about an hour before bed, on an empty stomach. It's not a "sleeping pill" and it will not make you feel drugged or groggy. It will simply help you to fall asleep naturally, and most people find that they sleep soundly through the night. It is cheap and perfectly legal and sold over the counter at most health food stores. GNC has it's own brand which I have used for several years. I sleep much better than I used.
If melatonin alone doesn't work, try valerian root capsules, which you can also get at health food stores. Valerian is a mild sedative which wears off after a couple of hours, so you won't feel groggy in the morning. Chomomile tea is also a good mild sedative.